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11 GENNAIO 2009 DOMENICA
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Giulio Andreotti
CELEBRATES 90 YEARS
PAGES AND CONFESS
Osservatore Romano
Mark Bellizzi Osservatore Romano had a long talk with the Senator for life Giulio Andreotti.
Here is the text of this interview that the Vatican newspaper has thus entitled
"Giulio Andreotti
or the bearable lightness of history. "
For his birthday did not ask for special gifts, though a desire to end if he blurts out: "Well , if you can ... maybe an extension. " Giulio Andreotti accomplished, the next January 14, 1990 years. Have been intense and undeniable. Have been analyzed in detail, in different locations, it is also certain. The senator for life, however, always seems to fly with an enviable lightness of the long years of review, with that detachment which is probably one of the secrets of his longevity as a public man. And today there is, in his study in Palazzo Giustiniani, in front of his desk, including a book of Don Giussani and one Renato Farina, wrapped in a double cardigan to combat the cold, busy writing, almost a living memory of over seventy years of Italian political history. And in one of the sheets, a note reads: "Altitude 90". Subtitle ideal: it marks the altitude when you have not yet reached the top. Also because of Senator Andreotti to say they have several. Do not secrecy, that as such, it is ridiculous even asking. More. For example, the political unity of Catholics had to finish first and now is much better distributed among the parties. That culture is gone. That the Italian justice system pays too many degrees of appeal. And the economic crisis but there is not any different from the others. And memories, anecdotes or less known, told with quiet irony for over an hour in an interview with the director of our newspaper and the writer.
Senator, congratulations ...
Thanks. Meanwhile, thank God, because along the way ... here: my classmates are gone. Sometimes when we were kids we used to greet one sentence: "The last to turn out the light." Now take care not to say ... But, in fact, now we all have good living conditions, food, medicines that are effective, the mortality has been reduced ...
Someone said that it will soon come to live 120 years.
If I were the Minister of the Treasury I would worry. These days, among other things, we are preparing also to celebrate the centenary of Rita Levi Montalcini.
We come to questions ...
This is my first interview with "L'Osservatore Romano." I do not remember if in prehistoric times, during the years of Fuci maybe has already happened. I've said before, as a reader of "The Observer", currently believed to be the dean of the living, because I began to read it in the early thirties, a bit 'out of curiosity. I was 12-13 years. It cost 20 cents, my mother gave me 40 cents for the currant. Instead I began to take a certain pleasure to read "The Observer" and "The Messenger. " I was a little 'teased at home for this. My mother does not read newspapers. Then I remember the period, in particular, the years during the war, Acta diurnal book Guido Gonella. Then he also gave the hunt for those who bought the newspaper of the Vatican. He went so far as to make the stakes at the newsstands. There was also a current university professor, Claudio Pavone, who did drink a glass of oil to the car because he was buying "The Observer". There was also someone, who later became well Democrat MP, who on "Fascist Rome" - then, I remember, there were big arguments against "The Observer" - Wrote the poem like "L'Osservatore Romano, published now, it is requisite for the toilet." It was a time when the newspaper gave him some discomfort. There were reports, especially on the war, the news objectively. And then, of course, there was the famous book by Guido Gonella, in which he spoke freely, unlike the Italian newspapers, all directed by "popular culture" because the world was limited to our allies, the rest was either ignored or was a kind of Sodom and Gomorrah. Sure, it makes quite an impression now.
was the period of racial laws.
The racial laws were among the less felt, because there was a tradition in this sense, by us. I remember that at the congress of Fuci 1938 in Genova - I was in sophomore year - we were in the evening Mass in the Church of the Immaculate via Assarotti. The pastor was Lercaro Don James, who later became a cardinal. We listened to a sermon on equality of men before God that we did not understand then and there, it seemed a bit 'obvious. We realized after he left the press of the Fascist Party which is entering the race laws, which were in imitation of Germany, but here were totally devoid of historical rationality. It had been years very dark; see that our fellow Jews could no longer attend school with us ... There was a crush nationalist, a kind of maximalist completely unfounded. If you reflect, it is stunning how to create or divert public opinion and lead generations roads completely wrong.
The Catholic population as living these days?
Sure, there was also cautious in their criticism. However, there was not just membership, but in the occasion where you could say a word, both in the parish, both in the clubs, the distances were taken. To think that men could to divide races was a bit 'odd. When a political system loses its control slips easily into a deflection of which even then is not personally liable, because it is a bit 'the air we breathe.
The air we breathe today in Italy is in many air of crisis. They're right, the optimists or the pessimists?
Mah .. if you look back, even if there is ever the same pace, we see that we always follow certain mechanisms. There are days when the dark is more and some where very small, and there is the alternation of positive and negative factors that may derive from the nature of man, which is always the same. Some people are led to be more party than the party who Cain and Abel. Usually outweigh those of Cain. However, we must be careful not to give rise to a reaction in the youth always seemed to us that we want to be the most talented, most good. Probably not true. Only in the world can you see if media generations were better or worse. Certainly there have been many advances: healthcare and the same law on pensions make living conditions even for those who are considerably older.
So you do not have the perception of an economic crisis unlike any other.
I think not. Meanwhile, looking at what happens outside, I repeat: sometimes it's sunny, sometimes not. Then the medium is difficult. If we are three, I have nothing to eat and the other two have more than enough, of little interest for medium-sized ... Now there is a system of attention to the lives of others across the border, much higher than before. Before the news from outside were few. I remember when I bought "The Messenger", and I found the news from America of a correspondent who I remember was called Angelo Flavio Guidi. I read these things that I felt I was reading a book of fiction. I also thought it was loaded. Then there was a certain approach to the lives of others. The same make communications more open borders, once if one did not know what could be better not to trample, now if you know you can feel better paws and then the leader who must take them into account.
This also applies to countries that look to the West as a land of prosperity.
I know, of course. On the other hand ourselves when at times we watched American movies, we saw things that seemed out of a novel. You could see strange things. I was impressed to see men standing in the kitchen. It was like seeing a naked man ... From one point of view self-sufficiency has made us well. From the psychological point of view. Of course we drove to see the positive data for not complaining. A tendency autarky is still apparent in those generations.
Well, in a country geographically and historically diverse as Italy have equality mean stopping some areas and this is completely impossible. The fascists were psychologically good at giving the impression that we were the best, that there lacked nothing. This pride became the common way of thinking. After it was understood the trick, but at the time was normal, probably also the school teacher had come up with certain ideas and in a natural way without knowing the broadcast of propaganda.
In which of his many assignments was more aware of the burden of responsibility?
Probably the Ministry of Defence. I had some initial discomfort. I, for physical reasons - failure to chest - I was not admitted to the course cadets. I did my military service in healthcare. I was in Rome and unfortunately some of my classmates went to war and never returned. Then I looked a bit 'daunting: to be a waste of leverage was a little' how to be considered a minor. At the time there I was wrong. Then I thanked God because I was still in Rome. I was lucky. And also a bit 'slacker: if I look at my military service are the days of license and those in actual service. I had the first six months, then twelve months of convalescence. But all in all I understand it is better to be a bit 'bends and no big lungs and be alive.
She was one of the other five times foreign minister.
There he learns to understand how important the international report, which leads to get used to the idea of not being the center of the universe. Then the thrust, as a Catholic, to search for multiple reasons of convergence and dialogue than the points of dispute, although there are - it is clear - competition, starting with the commercial, industrial. But the first few times you go to one of these international meetings, such as when they started the first European contacts, for example, widen the horizons much. But I remember a phrase De Gasperi, saying: "Study the language, because it is very important. But first of all, even more important is knowing what one says. " I was very impressed. Then there was a way of speaking, oratory, which is called "Neapolitan": a single noun, a lot of adjectives. A very emphatic way of speaking. I remember the last character of that school: Giovanni Porzio, De Nicola, it was extraordinary that when he spoke, then if one goes to summarize ... But it was music. Take the Council of Ministers. Now we speak as we are talking about us now. So we stood up. Porzio, memory, you put your fingers in his pocket and began: "Gentlemen remarkable." A rally. It was an Italy very superficial in some respects. But I do not know if the budget is totally positive today than then. There were certain values. The same De Nicola, for example. He was a lawyer, quite wealthy but very very generous and spendthrift. And he was left with no money, really. I said to De Gasperi. E De Gasperi said, let's give him an advice from the Bank of Naples. And he sent me home in Naples De Nicola offer this proposal. I said "Thank De Gasperi in life but I never took a penny that I could not give a return. As for the Banco di Napoli can not do anything, I'm sorry, I can not accept. " It was an example of life is important because sometimes speaks of a past century in a way ... But there were morally true capiscuola.
But then there were no women. Instead she led the first government minister to a woman, Tina Anselmi of the department of Labour.
This is a country where daily life is much talk of revolution, it seems it should do one a day. Then, to change something, if there is a previous ... I had got to know the Anselmi, seemed like a good person to reason - which then did the rest - and then it seemed only right that women had to overcome this closure, a closure that other countries had not known or that had passed. Of course it also highlights the positive role of women in caring for children, we wondered who could be replaced if both parents work. In short, issues that now seem prehistoric.
But if you were to describe the Italians to a foreigner, how would you describe them?
is difficult to find an expression summary, perhaps encouraged not to be impressed by the very polemical tones or phrases, or by certain injuries.
How has changed in recent years, the Italian foreign policy?
has changed in the sense that they also bring the tools of information every day to know a lot more than you once knew. Before long we were with the foot of the house. Sometimes making the jump so high is likely to be illusory. The League of Nations after the First World War, was a beautiful thing, but it was curious that there involving the United States. Then, we came up diverted by controversy, because when the League of Nations adopted sanctions against us because we invaded Ethiopia, the students were inclined to do the demonstrations in the streets.
De Gasperi has done much to feed a certain international conscience .
Yes, because he came from a major school, had made his first political experiences in Innsbruck and Vienna, a school of pluralism. The border was not a bulkhead, on the contrary ... The habit of the cultures to know one another, including languages.
About bulkheads, what do you think of the crisis in Gaza?
know, the nature of man ... is not that is acceptable in principle the absolute homo homini lupus, but the real one contrasts them with the neighbors ... I believe that neither of the contenders wants what is happening, but it will take time before reaching a real peace in those areas.
Senator, among the Italian political agenda of 2009 is that of justice. A reform in this area as criteria should follow?
A reform is desirable because there were many borderline cases. It is true that they are usually the ones that make news and others may not speak, but I believe we need a system where justice is faster and less expensive. Even for a city, sometimes, to be right ... They, the judges get upset if someone says this: the plurality of degree is helpful but this is the only sector in which the law requires the mistakes. There is no other professional field where there is a possibility appeal. However, to justice faster and less expensive it is my hope that you have always done. But it is hard. In theory, one might say, but in practice ...
She is disappointed, from the standpoint of personal and political, not yet been called to the presidency?
Well, since I do this job ... It's a bit 'as one that makes the military life: in short, look at the Greek generals as a major point of arrival. So, please, not that I thought 'no, no, God forbid, "but, in short, I survived. Also because what may be next to the positive side of power, there are also responsibilities and sacrifices. For example potersene not go for a walk as one wants, without escorts. It is a limitation. If the head of state wants to go take a walk in Villa Borghese, without cuirassiers, how do you move? In short, it is not all gold that shines at the Quirinale.
What personal and political memory was of Pius XII?
I have a great memory. Also its severity. When I was president of Fuci, the times I've gone to a private audience, I submitted a proper interrogation. He wanted to know how much was the students, if there was sufficient religious assistance to those called to arms. He was very strict. When there was the debut here in Rome, the phenomenon of Catholics, the Pope was a great severity because it was of the opinion that these trends will go immediately cut short. I had a small accident in the sense that when they arrested Ossicini Adriano, I was afraid that the Pope, who was to speak at a meeting with Opera assistance to the workers of Monsignor Baldelli, he was referring critically Communists to Catholics. At that moment would have been a stabbing. I ventured to send a letter to the Pope in which I asked him politely not to talk about this issue. It does not mention it. But then a few days later, I met him at a National Council. He looked at me with a very stern look and said: "It was all right?". One can see that had cost him not to talk about. It was a great pope one more time passes more effective also sees his holiness. Sometimes it seemed that every one was, in short, unspiritual. I have had the advantage of knowing the future Pope when I was a kid, because Eugenio Pacelli's sister lived in because of Prefects 22. We had the terrace, I lived to 18. And I knew her daughter. When this austere monsignor visited her and brought her some chocolate, I went a bit 'from the terrace.
nuncio was already ...
Yes but we must say we were not interested. I was more interested in the Roma players who went to lunch at the corner of the Prefects.
After the war Instead she was already in the government, as Secretary. They changed the relationship with Pius XII?
was very rigid in principles. Even correctly. I spoke before this group of Catholic community. He felt the injustice, call it philosophical, of these positions. As if he were to take other social teaching. As if there were not already within the Church. On this he showed he was a man of great principles and great spirituality. As time passes, the more you see that giant was.
How come all these polemics against Pius XII?
Probably because it took this very firm stance against communism. This brought him into the political reaction that probably pays more. Instead, only one thing, not a penny left to his grandchildren. He had nothing. A person, even in this respect, deeply spiritual.
It's predecessor as you remember that?
do not remember much. I remember an incident that happened to me. When we was the persecution of the Catholic circles by the fascists - I was twelve years old, riding between 1931 and 1932 - can not remember because I happened to collective audience in the hall of the consistory. I was greatly impressed by the fact that this man screaming and crying at the same time. I fainted. They put me behind a white curtain in a room nearby. It was a trauma.
and successors do you remember?
John XXIII met him in an almost casual. He was a close friend of Archbishop Belvederi, who was the uncle of my wife. I had gone to a conference in Trento, the Christian Democrats. We stopped in Venice, to visit the Patriarch. I invited him to breakfast and he took me to see the Health because she wanted the ground, an old warehouse of monopolies, was given at the seminar, which then happened. It struck me because after breakfast, I said, "I'll take a rest in the bed of Pius X". So I did the "nap" in the bed of Pope
Benedict XVI urged the formation of a new generation of Catholics involved in politics. What the previous generation would save and what not? probably seen later, we must consider that there was an attitude that was still the reality of the Papal States, it was difficult to distinguish between church and state. I remember a phrase from my aunt who was born in 1854: "When the Pope was people not paying taxes for not giving money to the Pope when the Pope went away did not pay taxes because he would not give money to those who took the Pope prisoner. " He always said that I understood this sentence only after what it meant. In short, there was still confusion. Moreover, the central streets of Rome still wear the papal edicts of the administration. However, there have been positive figures of Italian Catholics involved in politics. Sturzo De Gasperi and they are not alone.
Why was completed the experience of the political unity of Catholics?
Well, just went out in 1870, now the memory of the Papal States has become increasingly a thing of history. Then there was a whole tendency, which was very well trodden by Monsignor Montini, to try to remove all the practical problems of the state, rather than those who were the problems of education, the Catholic culture.
So you could say that she does not regret the Christian Democrats.
For a time, it was also essential to stem a slide of Italy to the far left. But then for the rest, given the different situation in Europe, the world situation, perhaps it would have been much better to keep separate the two. Then maybe you could also regret not as Democrats enjoy this obligation, but we must recognize that it was right.
short, pluralism is more Catholic?
In my opinion, yes. If there is no defensive reason leading to such problems aside Flights to save only what is, let's call it, a bulkhead cultural, then it is best that Catholics are distributed.
and ethical issues there is something to defend?
life. If science says today that the embryo is life, who kills the embryo is a very serious thing. But these are matters of natural law, common to non-Catholics. Life is life. Then if one deserved to go to heaven or not, we will see this. As late as possible ...
Of issues that are debated on the so-called end of life do you think?
I do not have a review. It is very difficult to really find the dividing line between what is right and what is not right. I am very cautious, I know a lot of these issues. Certainly not in the habit, as was the case in the nineteenth century however, to discuss, even among the laity, the theology, in depth.
There is a cultural decline?
If we use the term culture can not be optimistic. If it comes to learning, knowledge, then we are well ahead of time. It's something a bit 'different.
In his long political career has done something that is rifarebbe?
certainly do not consider myself to be perfect. Sometimes one has brought more to follow the impulses that reasoning. In this respect, perhaps previous generations were at our best. Then we're bound to the Catechism of Pius X had summarized in brief formulas are simple, all of this. However, the "goats" I made it myself.
And one thing I did and he wanted to do?
I would have studied more languages.
(© L'Osservatore Romano - January 11, 2009)
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